The Takeover with Tim and Cindy

Create a People-First Culture: Robert Levin’s Journey to Empowering Teams!

• Tim and Cindy Dodd

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What does it take to build a thriving people-first culture?

Rob Levin, co-CEO of Work Better Now, shares his journey of empowering teams and growing his company by 3000% by putting talent first. In this episode, Rob breaks down how focusing on team culture, delivering "wow" experiences, and leveraging global talent have been the key to his company’s success.

If you're looking to build a business that prioritizes people and creates lasting impact, this episode is for you:

[01:57] Company Growth and Referral-Driven Success

[07:26] What Strategies Are You Using to Grow Beyond Referrals?

[10:43] What Does a "Wow" Client Experience Look Like?

[19:14] Core Values

[23:53] What Would You Do If You Lost Everything?

[28:04] How to Get Involved with Work Better Now


Connect with Rob:

Website: https://www.workbetternow.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertslevin

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About The Hosts:

  • Tim & Cindy Dodd are the Co-founders of PEMA.io, based out of Miami, FL. Connect with Tim and Cindy: Instagram

About PEMA.io:

  • PEMA.io is a Inc 5000 Outbound Marketing Agency specializing in Enterprise Sales & Appointment Setting. With over 7-years and 1,000+ clients served in the industry, PEMA is the leading agency for cold outreach appointments & systems. Learn more about PEMA.io here: www.pema.io/discover

00:00
One of the first things I said is, we're gonna put our talent first. But it was really important for us. We're gonna treat our talent really well. We're gonna put them first, because if we do that right, everything else, almost everything else will fall in place. At the end of the day, it becomes obvious. And that's when you know you've really created that culture by design that you're trying to, is when the entire company, it's not just the founders that are talking about this stuff, but the entire company is working according to this culture. And it's really powerful. And...

00:29
You know, it sounds like you and I had the same experience where we kind of knew about this culture stuff, but we didn't really appreciate it until we really started to apply it either us or with our partners or with the other members of the team. And it becomes so powerful. Welcome to The Takeover with Tim and Cindy, where we show you how to dominate every area of life and business. Let's get winning.

00:55
If you're looking for new ways to grow your business fast, today's guest is going to give you very practical, proven strategies to do just that. You'll be able to walk away from today's episode and apply to your business to grow even faster. And this isn't some guy that's just saying, he knows how to grow faster, has some new loophole. He just hit the 5,000 list as a 114th fastest growing private company in the U S we hit 526. So this guy beat us this year. We're pushing to beat him next year.

01:23
So go ahead, lock in and really take some notes in this because what you're about to hear is gonna be very practical, things that you can apply to your business to start growing faster right now. So welcome to the show, Rob Levin. Thanks for having me, Tim. Really excited to have this discussion with you. Yeah, same. And I know we both hit the INK 5000 this last year. I mean, 3000% growth since 2020, Ben. And pretty incredible. You're a little better on the list than we are. We hit...

01:51
526, you hit 114, so super impressive. I'm excited to dive in today to go through some of how you've grown, because that's a 3000% growth. So let's go ahead and dive in. When you started this thing, it was just you, your assistant, and your partner. How big are you now as the company? Yeah, so now we have about 35 or 36 people I boost track, and most of them are in Latin America. So we not only provide talent from Latin America for our clients.

02:19
But we're run on the same talent that we buy to our clients. So like I said, about 36 or so people, and then we have 400 of our remote professionals, a little bit more than that now, working for our clients. That number goes up every week. I love it. What do you think has been your main mindset around growth? Like, how do you think about growth? Because to hit 114 on the Inc 5000.

02:43
That means you're being very aggressive and very intentional about growth. So how do you think as a CEO, as the owner of the business about growing and scaling your business? Yeah, co-CEO, co-founder. So the way we think about it is number one, it's all about delivering wow experiences to our clients and to our talent. And I know you're thinking like, well, is that a marketing thing? Actually, it is because our clients, our talent loves working for us. They love the company.

03:10
And our clients love us. We have an NPS score somewhere in the seventies, which is world-class. That's the likelihood of somebody wanting to refer you to a friend of theirs. And that is how we've grown. We've grown, I think, 90 to 95% of our businesses come from referrals, which is really incredible to achieve that kind of growth consistently over the years. And we do that because we deliver WoW experiences. It started day one when my partner...

03:36
was interviewing every single candidate that our clients were hiring from us because a lot of them were friends. We didn't want to disappoint our friends. Well, today we still don't want to disappoint a single client and we recruit only the best talent and we help them get on board and we provide all sorts of support. And with that, our clients are ridiculously happy with the service that they're getting from us. They tell us that the people that we're providing to them are among their top performers. So they're gonna wanna tell their...

04:05
their friends. And that's what's been happening. And we do have some strategies to, to help that go along. But that's really what it's come down to. It's almost all been referrals. I love that because it means that you're doing an exceptional job. I know referrals don't just magically happen and I'm getting the feeling that you're incredibly process driven. There's an SOP for everything. There's a rhythm. There's a routine for everything. If this happens, then do this for everything you do. So why don't you just kind of

04:33
and you don't have to reveal all your secrets, but the more you can, the better, is what does that referral sales process look like? Because I'm sure you're not just waiting for your customers to send, maybe you are, but do you have a process around how do you get referrals and upsells and stuff? So spoiler alert, we do have things in place, and I'm gonna go into that in a second, but we literally get referrals without even prompting many times. And the reason for that is,

05:00
Yes, we do a great job. We provide a great service. Our clients love us. But a lot of it's also we're in the right place at the right time. There's a talent crisis in the United States. Anybody who runs a business knows it's very hard to find great talent that really wants to work for your company that they don't want to just do the bare minimum. And of course, to do that also at an affordable wage, it's very hard. And we provide an amazing alternative for that with our talent in Latin America. So some of it's luck and timing.

05:28
Yes, we do a great job, but we're also in the right place at the right time. Now we created a referral program. Probably in 2019 or 2020. So it's certainly before things started to heat up for us, very simple program where whether you're a client or not, if you want to refer business to us, as long as the person who's hired is still employed for up to 24 months, you get a payment for us and some we have, we have plenty of people that are making thousands of dollars a month. And those are some of the, the favorite checks that we write every month.

05:58
Funny enough, we're now going back, we're having all of our client consultants, their salespeople go back to our clients and ask for more referrals. We actually think we're only scratching the surface in terms of the referrals that we can get. And you know, yes, some of the people that make referrals are referral partners and they get these payments from us. But if you ask any of them why they are referring business to us, they will say I'm doing it to help my friend, not us, although they love to help us, but

06:26
They have this friend who's a business owner who is really struggling getting talent and they know that we'll take care of them and they're actually doing it to help them. And any payment that they might get is just like a bonus. Do you think that the referral program helps or do you think it's just like a nice way for you to say thank you? It's a little bit of both depends on who I think it helps. Again, one of the things I explain to my team is when you're talking to people about the referral program, don't talk about the money first.

06:53
Because I can assure you that's not why they're going to do it. Yes. If they get a little mailbox money, a few thousand dollars a month. Sure. That doesn't hurt, but they're doing it because they really, they trust us and they want to help their friends with getting great talent. I agree. To me and say, Hey, Tim, you've got an audience or you, you know, you've got all these clients that are in this. And if you mentioned me, man, I will give you this kind of referral. I'm like, I got my own business. I'm growing. I'm not trying to make money off of a, like a side gig.

07:21
That makes a lot of sense. Don't lead with that, but it's also a way to say, hey, we're not just asking for favors. We're also wanting this to be a win-win-win situation because you know our product's great. You know it's gonna help your customer or your friends. And, oh, and hey, by the way, here's a little thank you gift. It's more like a Christmas gift or a Christmas card. It's less about like, that is the reason they're doing it. And it's more of just a way to make sure that it's a win-win-win situation. That's been our experience. Awesome. So for you guys, is there...

07:50
any growth trajectory outside of just continuing to get the referrals? There are some other things that we are actually in the middle of doing right now. Number one, I'm working on a book. I hope it'll be out by the end of the year. I think that'll be a great marketing tool for us. You know, we've always said since day one, I said, let's not worry about competition. Let's not worry about competition. Don't worry about the competition. Now, about a year or two ago, I said, look, the competition is going to be coming soon. It's just, if you look at the trends, Latin American talent.

08:20
it's going to boom. It's not going to be the exception anymore for somebody to have people in Latin America, talent or in Asia as well. It's going to be the rule over time. And then at some point, competition is going to heat up. And I'm the visionary in the company. That's an EOS term we run on EOS. And one of my jobs is to look ahead and to say, how can we remain 10 steps ahead of the competition? I don't want to be one or two steps. So that's everything from

08:48
We launched a pilot of the WBN Academy, which is continuous education for our remote professionals so they can bring new capabilities to our clients. But it also includes, hey, let's be the company where one of the founders wrote the book on managing talent today, because it's very different than it was just five, certainly 10 years ago. And I'm doing more speaking, I'm gonna be launching a podcast. We're also getting involved in different business organizations. A great example is there's a business organization called Rockheads.

09:16
This is national organization of stone and tile companies. Not very big. And we have a client who said, hey, I'd love to have you speak at the next RockHeads event somewhere in the middle of country. And I went and spoke and we picked up a ton of business. And then we're not only that, we're getting those people who became clients are now referring us to other people both in the stone and tile business and outside. And there's other groups where I'll be speaking and just, you know, the word gets around and it's been going.

09:45
So far it's been going great and we're really gonna accelerate a lot of those plans next year. I like it. So a lot of your growth is, because you already have growth, you already have a growing client base. I mean, you get a lot of word of mouth, so it's becoming exponential. You as a visionary and I, my co-founder is the integrator, I'm the visionary as well. So it's like seeing ahead and then, but also making sure that, you know, like all the pieces are in place. So I love that. We use the EOS system as well. So it sounds like...

10:12
What you already have good growth where you're really going is that longer term growth strategy because writing the book, getting the podcast, doing those things, that's not like a, hey, I'm going to get this meeting meetings this month and I can convert at this speed. Rapid growth, that's more of a, hey, I'm thinking more about long-term growth. So we can build more of a social presence versus getting a

10:37
direct like, hey, let's go get customers next month kind of thing. Yeah. I look, I think it's difficult to just say, Hey, let's get customers next month. The quickest way for us to do that is actually from referrals. And as I mentioned, we're now going to even be a little bit more proactive getting referrals, the book and speaking, speaking historically. Cause I started doing it. I spoke a little bit last year. I spoke at the EOS free conference this year. And what I found is it drives some.

11:04
when you do speak, which of course that's planned months in advance, when you do speak, you know, you do get an immediate hit. But then there's also a long tail. I hear from people that heard me speak six, eight months ago saying, hey, I heard you speak six, eight months ago. I didn't have a need then. Now I have a need. Can we chat? So I think there is a little bit of a short tail there, but there's definitely a long tail. So what I'm really curious about and I'd love to dig into is what does that wow experience look like for you guys? Because I mean, you know, our audience is all about growing and scaling.

11:32
And I think everybody says customer service, exceptional customer service, but to create such a wow experience that you're growing as fast as you are primarily on referrals with not an aggressive incentive program. It's there. But what does that wow experience look like from when you take a client on and how do you ensure that

11:53
You're getting customers like so happy that it sounds like they're becoming raving fans of you guys. Yeah. So what I'm about to say is something that if I would have heard this 10 years ago, I would have rolled my eyes. So just a warning, if you roll your eyes after I say this, I get it. Let me elaborate. It starts with our core values. So my partner and I decided to start this business in a bar in Portland, Oregon, neither Portland or Oregon. And one of the first things I said is we're going to put our talent first.

12:23
And he asked me to explain it and I explained it to him, but it was really important for us. We're going to treat our talent really well. We're going to put them first. Cause if we do that right, everything else, almost everything else will fall in place. That's where it all started. We now have five other core values and they're actually lived and breathed in the company. And that's the essence of what makes our clients so happy with us and wanting to refer us and literally raving about us, raving fans, as you said. So it starts with.

12:52
those core values, particularly that one, putting our talent first. By doing that, we now attract amazing talent. We recruit from, I don't know, 15 to 17 countries in barriers by month in Latin America, and we have a great employer brand in those countries where we're sought out. Get thousands of applications every single month, and then our recruiting department screens that to find that top one or 2% that are good fits for our clients, and then our clients get to interview and all that stuff.

13:20
But it really just starts with maniacal approach on getting amazing talent. And then, yes, we have this experience, this expression here, wow, experiences. We want to deliver wow experiences to our talent. Even the people that apply that don't get approved by us to interview with our clients. You know, they put a lot of time into the assessments and all of that. We give them feedback, right? We don't have to do that, but we want to create wow experiences all across the board. When a client has an issue.

13:48
You know, we're not saying, hey, let's just say it doesn't happen often, but a client like, Hey, you know what? This didn't work for me. All right. No contracts. It's not working for you. We can stop today. Stop today. Whereas there's other companies. Well, we have to stop at the end of the month or we have a 12 month contract. Just doesn't none of that stuff makes sense to us. We want to have wow experiences everywhere possible. So it starts with a great talent and then we're all committed to deliver a wow experience. Yeah.

14:15
I would have rolled my eyes to that 2018 when I started. So I had actually launched my company 2018 by myself. No concept of, it's like you hear the word culture, you hear the word value, yeah, cool. I'll figure that out when I get bigger. Grew the 243 monthly marketing clients in 18 months and crashed because I didn't intentionally build the culture.

14:41
And so I think what I love about what you said there, it's very real to me because culture exists, values exists. The question becomes, do you create and foster them and make them alive and well in your company and hire and attract people by those values? Or do you let it just emerge? Because if you let it just emerge by itself, it's not going to be good. And 99.9% of the cases.

15:06
And so we actually went through that whole thing. And when my co-founder jumped on in 2020, and we didn't know what our core values are. And so what you're saying, I 1,000% agree with, because it's that hard work you put in to figure out what the values are, and then the reinforcement of that every single day, you start to attract the right talent. And like for us, we have twice a month meetings with all of our employees, which are personal, professional, financial goals. We mentor them through that. Everybody knows our core values. And what...

15:36
Rob is saying, anybody listening, what Rob is saying is 1000% true. And any of the guests you hear that come on here that are successful, this is a big part of what makes a company grow beyond that initial phase. This is what is allowing a company like yours, Rob, to continue to grow because we don't build businesses, Rob. Like we build people and the people build the business. That's a great way to say it. Look, my first business, I started my first business.

16:04
after working for other people and seeing how not to do things in 2003. And I remember sitting in a coffee shop, coming up with the plan. And I started to write out what I want the culture to be. And of course, what happened? Well, business started to come in. We, you know, we had to start doing stuff. I did exactly what you said. I kind of put that culture stuff to the side. Now, and between my partner and I, we were a lot more intentional about it. And then my partner is another key element here because I'm the visionary. I kind of know.

16:34
how we should be doing things, what needs to be done. I'm not great at implementing things. I could do it. My partner's really good at it. He was great at having the patience to interview people and work with them every week. And separating those visionary and integrator roles has been really critical for us, where I can focus on my unique ability and he's focusing on his. Yeah, it's the same story. And I didn't realize that that's what was happening until later on.

16:58
I remember I picked up an EOS book, or it was Traction or whatever. And Cindy, my co-founder, she's like, hey, you should read this. A friend of ours suggested it. And I'm like, oh, we should build our whole company on this. And then it was every day, there's a bridge that goes over the ocean to a quay. And it's a beautiful run, about a five mile run. Every day I'd run, boom, from there back, I would listen to the book as much as I could, probably 10 or 20 times in 2020. And I will tell you right now, Rob.

17:28
building the culture, the infrastructure, we call it our tripodal, but it's a level 10 meeting. Every day, like having these processes in place allow for so much scalability, and really it's been great for us. What I'm curious about, I wanna pick your brain on, is what does it look like for you and your company? How do you ensure that you are keeping the values alive? Like what does that look like where people are living the values versus just like,

17:58
something on the wall. If you're loving what you're hearing, subscribing is the best way to ensure you never miss an episode. You can also follow us on all our social media channels at TimAndCindy.to get the latest updates on new and upcoming episodes. Yeah, it's a great question. We have a weekly all hands meeting and there's never one of those meetings where somebody doesn't, somebody, when I see somebody, I mean somebody other than myself or Andrew, my partner.

18:27
talks about one of the core values. In particular, we started something maybe three years ago called the W awards, where anybody can nominate anybody else in the company for a W award. It's when they go above and beyond their responsibility, and it's gotta be tied into one of the core values. So every week, those get nominated, the CEO or the department manager reviews those, and then they approve them. And we recognize those people who get those W awards every week.

18:54
You should see their faces light up. There's like a very small monetary side to it, but it's really about the recognition in front of their peers. So we're recognizing people for those core values all the time. And then every once in a while, we ended up hiring somebody that doesn't fit in with the core values and we have to help them find a better place, a more suitable place to work because it's not going to be with us, even if they're really talented and we've done that. We practice what we preach. Cause it's not, it's not that your core values are always

19:22
right or wrong. It's just here's our core values. We want to attract people that are aligned to those core values. And if they're not, it's not like just because they're not aligned with your core values doesn't mean that they're a bad person. It means that they're not a fit for here. And I think Jim Collins talked about this. He said the greatest companies have some kind of core value that everybody has sense to. Less important is what the actual values are. And what's more important is that everybody knows and is bought into the values and the mission. So...

19:50
You have five, we started with seven, but then the team over time ended up trading three more. So I know 10's a lot, but they are all alive. There's not one in there that's dead. What are those? Are you cool sharing what your five core values are, Rob? Yeah, there's six. There was the put our talent first is the first one. I actually pulled it up in the other three years. Work with integrity and transparency, it's number two, these are not really in order. Work with an ownership mentality, one of my favorites.

20:18
have a growth mindset, work with an excellent attitude, and pursue excellence. I'm a nerd now. I feel like you and I are sitting in a bar right now having a conversation because literally, excellence is our standard, people is our passion, our pursuit of growth is relentless. We take extreme ownership. A lot of the shared core values there, what's really, really important in that is just that you actually create, the more that you get your team bought into this, it's almost like you start to create a culture that's like an immune system.

20:48
What we found Rob is that when we actually have the wrong talent that comes in, we don't even have to let them go. It's like the team almost kind of not in a negative way, but it's like they come into the culture and like, it's almost like a cult, you know, like that's got a culture going on with it with there. So people come in, they're like, ah, it's a little too intense for me. Cause you know, at our company, everybody's very like resolved to win. They've got huge goals in their personal lives. They're big thinkers. And when people come in that are just looking at like clock in and clock out, they're like,

21:17
I don't know about this. This is a little too extreme for me. And they leave and that's fine. But that's what we found. Have you found the same thing where, because the strength of your culture, it almost acts like an immune system, that when the wrong people come in, they kind of almost just get pushed out one way or another? I would say they get pushed out or they start to stand out and stand out in a not so great way. The end of the day, it becomes obvious. And that's when you know you've really created that culture by design that you're trying to is when.

21:45
The entire company, it's not just the founders that are talking about this stuff, but the entire company is working according to this culture. And it's really powerful. And, you know, it sounds like you and I had the same experience where we kind of knew about this culture stuff, but we didn't really appreciate it until we really started to apply it either us or with our partners or with the other members of the team, and it becomes so powerful. I mean, there's an expression by Peter Drucker, who was a very famed

22:14
business consultant. He said culture each strategy for breakfast. You know, that's only a few words, but it's so powerful. Yes. Anyways, we could share books because I love Peter Drucker as well. But let's make a little bit of a shift. You know, see, you're Inc 5000. I think you I'll see you at the gala this year. It'd be cool to meet you in person. You hit 114 this year. What is your growth goals look like over the next one, three, five years? Like where are we going to see Rob over these next few years? Yeah. So the best way to talk about it.

22:42
is first of all, it comes down to our mission. When we talk about growing, our mission is to help amazing talent and amazing companies fulfill their dreams. Right? That's our mission. So when we talk about growth, it's we want to help more companies and more talent, more people fulfill their dreams. That's what we want to do. So it's not just growth for the sake of numbers. The numbers are great byproduct. Don't get me wrong. But it's we want to help as many people who fit in with what we do as possible. Right?

23:11
So I mentioned to you that I'm going to be doing more speaking and really we're going to be more proactive in getting referrals. And there's a few other things that we're going to be experimenting with. I think a lot of marketing, especially today in the B2B world, probably in the B2C world is a lot about experimenting and tweaking. And I don't believe there's a magic pill anymore, or if there ever was. So we're looking at doubling over the next three years. Obviously 2020 was our, was when we just started to get going. So our growth rate will probably slow, but we will grow.

23:38
will grow revenue and profits and the number of people that are working for our clients, those numbers will go up really, really nice. Every year it becomes a little harder to hit your same Inc 5000 number because it's a percentage of growth. Yeah. Tell me to double growth. If you're doing a million year and going to two million year, that's pretty easy to go from a hundred million year to 200 million year. That's a little bit more work, a little bit more work though. It's the same growth rate. I question I asked some of the podcast guests.

24:08
I don't ask them all, but I was thinking, man, I'd love to hear Rob's answer on this. We know that we see these incredibly successful entrepreneurs and business people and they could lose it all. We had David Meltzer on our podcast and he had a $100 million business, was doing super well, lost it all, went bankrupt and now built back to a $100 million agency. So we know these things happen. What would you do, Rob, if you were to lose all of your money?

24:37
all of your connections and your business. What would you do to get back to where you're at right now as quickly as possible? I would reach out to business owners because that's the space I know well. For over 30 years, I've been one way or another serving business owners, media company, accountants, very wide range of stuff. I know that market well. I would really just speak with them and see where they are having challenges.

25:07
And because again, I know that market and I would build another company that would help them with their challenges. I would also probably tie that into challenges that I had in growing work better now, because that's how this company started. It was my, I had my first assistant in 2014 changed my life. And then I was, I was referring friends to other companies in Latin America. Then I realized I can do it better. So I would just look for that problem to solve that I had and that others have. And then I would build a company all over again.

25:37
following much of the same steps. Work with my partner, we have different unique abilities, yet we have the same core values, and build a company around a very culture that's done by design and not by default. And then whatever we would do, we would do. I don't know what it would be, but it would be probably serving that market. And again, following a lot of the same steps that we did, we work better now. So one thing that really sticks out, and anybody listening to this, pay attention. Rob, what you said wasn't...

26:06
about the thing you sell. Your obsession was finding a problem to solve and the business model around how you would execute that. Over and over and over again, I found everybody interview that's doing well in their business and growing fast is obsessed with the business model. And you'll even look at like some of the biggest companies out there, they're obsessed with the business model, not necessarily obsessed with the product. And so your whole focus is like, how do I get

26:35
find the right problem to solve, and then get the right people on the bus to help me solve it and make sure I'm building the right culture to attract those people. Is that kind of like, if I were to put it in three things, would that be it? Yeah, I don't know if that's the exact order, but it doesn't matter. Those are three of the big steps. Absolutely. And that's one thing people, you know, they can't take away from you is that experience that you've learned over time. And so...

26:57
I love that Rob, this has been an awesome podcast. What I really want to do man is have people get connected with you because I think what you do, what you offer is something that every company needs help with. We do a lot of recruiting. We've probably recruited over 800 people in the Philippines as appointments that are specifically. Most of our team is in the Philippines. So we believe very, very, very bigly, bigly, I don't know if bigly is a word. It is now.

27:22
But it is now. But we're big believers in using talent, global talent. The world we're living in is global talent. And not only is it helping your company, but I'm sure as you know, it's incredible the impact that you get to have on the folks that come and work for you, the family lives that change, how you're able to help these families and all of that.

27:45
I know in like in the Philippines, it's a big time if one person gets a good job, a lot of times they're supporting an entire family and sometimes extended family. And so I believe in a big time. I believe in the value of what you guys can do at Work Better Now. I believe in outsourcing. I believe in this a lot. And how can people get connected with what you guys are doing and really get help with how you guys help? Yeah. Thanks for asking. So at workbetternow.com.

28:13
There's a resources tab and you can get a bunch of e-guides and webinars, particularly on two topics that I think are really important for entrepreneurs. Number one, every business owner should have an assistant. And we could have spent the entire time speaking today about how important that is and why that's important and how it's a game changer. And then we also have a number of e-guides on what we're calling the updated talent playbook. And it's not just about hiring offshore talent, but it's about how you can use AI and automation in your business.

28:43
to deal with the talent crisis that we're in, how you need to change your retention habits and how you attract and hire talent. We go into all of that so you can find all of those resources, they're all free at workbetternow.com. And then of course you can find me on LinkedIn, just type in Rob Eleven, work better now, and I'll pop up. Love to hear from you. That's awesome. So I mean, a lot of what you're helping people out with is not just the delegation of work, but the automatic, hey,

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What are the tasks that can be automated and what are the tasks that can be delegated? Is that what I'm hearing? We don't do that as a service. A lot of our professionals have helped our clients do better jobs with automation and starting to use AI. And now we're doing a full launch of the WBN Academy where they're going to have a lot more knowledge on how to bring those capabilities into clients. But either way, whether we do it or not, it's imperative for every small and mid-sized business out there.

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start to at least play around with AI and you have to be using automation in your business. Again, we can spend another whole session talking about why that's important and how you can get started. But some of that stuff's available for you to read or listen to on the eGuides and the webinars on our site. If you're not using global talent, if you're not using automation and if you're not using AI, your company is not gonna exist. Not by 2030, nope. It's not sooner. No, I mean it's.

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It's just the simple fact of the efficiency and the cost. The way your competitor, if your competitor is using all three of those things, they're going to destroy you. And if you're using those three things and you get really good at using those three things, you're just going to have a competitive advantage in the future. It's just going to be normal. Like if you don't have them, you're not going to exist right now. People kind of exist without some of those pieces. So if you're listening to this and you're missing any of those pieces.

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Go check Rob out. Sounds like he's got some great resources there. Rob, Levin, this has been awesome to have you on the show, brother. And I'm excited to see you at the Inc 5000 gala. Yeah, so we'll either, we'll see each other either before the actual gala or we'll see each other with tuxedos on. Either way, looking forward to meeting you guys in person. Awesome, brother. Well, it was great having you, Rob. Talk soon, man. Take care, Tim. Thanks again.